Intention Economy Test: Washer/Dryer

Paula and I discovered this morning that the Spin cycle in our ancient washing machine no longer spins.  On closer examination, the dryer is pretty badly pitted with rust and the door needs to be propped with a board.

We have of course paid no attention to ads, or articles about washers and dryers. The subject has not crept into conversations in our trusted networks. Our clothes got clean and dry and that's all that mattered to me.  Oh yeah, as a guy who was single for a very long time, I liked the fact the two appliance operated without coin slots.

Now, it's time to test the Doc Searls' Intention Economy thesis.

Now, we want to know a great deal about washers and dryers. What features really matter.  What brands do people trust? What stores, withing 15 miles of San Carlos, CA have given people the best experiences?

This is a test for Doc's intention economy. Tell me what you know, think or feel.  Give me an advertising offer.  Just tell me about your own experience.  Fr the next couple of weeks, we will want to know everything about washers and dryers.

Then, as has been our way through life, we'll want to know nothing once again.

I look forward to your help.

Comments

[Pat Phelan]

Hi Shel
We have used a bunch of different appliance manufacturers over the years and were recommended Miele two years agoby a friend; it has been a fantastic machine and has never left us down. Local dealers in your neck of the woods below.
http://direct.where2getit.com/cwc/apps/w2gi.php?client=miele&template=locator&postalcode=94070&product=App

[alan herrell - the head lemur]

Maytag Neptunes should be on the bottom of your list.
the most telling bit is not just my experience , but the comments. This saga is hands down the most popular posting I have done.
http://theheadlemur.typepad.com/ravinglunacy/2005/09/new_lows_in_ser.html
http://theheadlemur.typepad.com/ravinglunacy/2005/09/new_lows_in_ser_2.html
http://theheadlemur.typepad.com/ravinglunacy/2005/09/new_lows_in_ser_3.html
http://theheadlemur.typepad.com/ravinglunacy/2005/10/maytag_neptune_.html

[Richard Anson]

Hi Shel

You can check out reviews from confirmed purchasers of "washers and dryers":http://www.reevoo.com/facet/tags/product_type/washers_and_dryers on Reevoo.com (yes I run the business, so it is self promotion!). We also have "buying guides":http://www.reevoo.com/pages/washers_buying_guide and have just introduced a "water cooler":http://www.reevoo.com/reviews/mpn/whirlpool/awo3551 so you can chat to other people talking about the products you are thinking of buying.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

All the best

Richard

[James Governor]

my advice. buy German- machines are a bit more expensive in general, but offer much better power consumption, and aren't so noisy...

[Kami Huyse]

I like the Sears Kenmore machines, a little cheaper and very reliable. We got the front loader washer and dryer four years ago and it has worked flawlessly. It also saves on water, 20 gallons or so per load versus 40 for a top loader amd is Energy Star compliant. You can find them at www.sears.com.

[Doc Searls]

I agree about Sears' Kenmores.

Trust Consumer Reports. They have this one down.

One thing to care about: automatic sensing of moisture, so you don't over-dry or cook your clothes.

Another thing: noise. What happens with an uneven load? Does it bang all over the place? Does it shut down? What can you do when it shuts down?

How much noise does the dryer make? What happens when a coin gets into the works and clangs around where you can't find and remove it?

[Lisa Williams]

Hi, Shel:

I had to walk into my pantry to look to see what brand we had. It's a Frigidaire compact stacking washer/dryer combo.

Not to get all Donna Reed on everybody, but I love this washer dryer. Why? It fits in my pantry, and I don't have to go down two flights into the basement to wash clothes.

I'm about 60% more likely to be wearing matching socks these days, because I don't wait for the laundry pile to be big enough to provide the initiation energy for Ye Olde Laundry Trek To The Underground Planet.

Plus, now I can get my kids, who are 2 and 4, in on the act. It's really a pain to take them into the basement, and there's a lot of stuff that a two year old could get in trouble with down there (pointy things, solvents, the furnace). Now the kids get stepstools and load the washer, which they enjoy because it's an activity in which throwing things into a hole is sanctioned.

[nellie lide]

We recently bought a Kenmore dryer from Sears - basically all the companies make decent machines - in the end we got the biggest, cheapest machine.

[PJ]

You should figure out what features you want: large load size, energy efficiency, front-loading or top-loading, stackable, etc - and go from there.

I personally went after energy efficiency about 5 years ago and ended up with an asko washer/dryer set - front loading, and their rating on energy efficiency was literally off the left side of the yellow chart. Recently I got married and have begun to notice that the load size is a bit small for two people.

Just my pair of pennies...

--pj

[Michael Bernstein]

Here is some info:

Detergents for High Efficiency are harder to find, and prices reflect that. In particular, only relatively recently has Tide HE come in a dye and perfume free version, and few places stock it. A couple of places actually stopped stocking it.

You'd think that consumers who want to save water would be more apt to choose perfume and dye-free detergents, but either this isn't the case, or P&G hasn't been pushing it right.

Some detergents marked as being for "any washer types, including high efficiency" like All, are in fact lethal to HE washers.

The Calypso HE washer we bought from Sears about six years ago has been nothing but trouble and has broken down an average of once a year. It is also very rough on clothes. If your clothing, sheets, or towels have even the tiniest hole, the Calypso will turn it into a big hole after only a few washes. Same goes for frayed edges or stitches.

Washers, like most large appliances, are overpriced. Feature bundling causes people to spend more money on features thaey don't want to get features they do. This isn't new, but a manufacturer that bucked this trend to actually give people what they want instead of forcing upsell on other features would garner a lot of loyalty.

I've been hearing Maytag customers starting to grumble about the Whirlpool/Maytag merger. People are *expecting* Maytag relaibility to suffer, and are viewing their own experiences in that light to confirm their expectations. I don't think the verdict is actually in yet, but to avoid taking this PR hit Maytag reliability will actually have to improve over pre-merger levels.

[Michael Bernstein]

Regarding Kenmores - The Calypso we bought was a Kenmore.

Here's the problem: Whirlpool has a deal with Sears so Kenmores get new features a year earlier than their own brand appliances.

We got the first-generation Calypso, which was out a year earlier than the Whirlpool version. Beefore. The. Bugs. Were. Worked. Out.

And, of course, now they've been discontinued because they were so troublesome. Every Sears service technician who has been out here has told us that these are responsible for more service calls than any other washers on the market. Yet they aren't *quite* bad enough to issue a recall.

So, when considering a Kenmore, try to find out of it incorporates some fancy new technology that nobody else has yet, and decide if you want to be the beta-tester.

[Joseph A. di Paolantonio]

Shel,

I always start with Consumers' Report or the Consumers' Union Web Site. Then I follow up on their recommended brands with a web search to see if I can find real user information.

Based on this research about a year ago, I purchased the Kenmore HE3t, now on version 4 ;-) It's been a great choice.

I agree with earlier comments that HE rated detergents are difficult to find, but not impossible. I use All HE Free - no dyes or perfumes. But I found the non-HE version is more cost effective - use 1/3 the ammount recommended for normal washers. Works great.

BTW, many water companies offer incentive rebates on the purchase of an HE washer.

I used the same methodology for car purchases, bathroom remodels, and other major expenditures. I'm very happy with the results.

BTW, Clarise and I will be at Toyota 101 on the 21st. If your available and want to drive over to the Pelican Cafe near there, call me on my cell after 10 and we'll buy you a coffee.

[jbr]

advice isn't really what you want, is it? if i read doc's intention economy correctly, you want to be approached by sellers...not well meaning friends/people offering advice. you can get advice anytime...

it sounds a lot like the insurance and banking commercials seen on tv...they "compete" for your business....

the problem....what is the incentive to a seller if they already have an relatively successful and "efficient" mechanism?

if you were buying thousands of washer/dryers, i could see some form of auction system arising....however, for an individual, it's hard to envision being approached by a seller....

unless...the seller is a new company with a different outlook on commerce....a company that data mines craigslist and other similar "intent" sites...looking for people intent on buying a washer/dryer...

no doubt, someone smart will come along with a web 2.0 mechanism....is it possible to reverse search google for all entries related to "washer/dryer"?....and then, find a way to target those "intenders" without being invasive? hmmm...google could make money from that process...

can a "tag" be created for "intenders"? if it caught on, a smart seller would query for "intend buy washer/dryer" and approach the "intender" via an online mechanism...

anyway, someone smarter than me will figure it out....good luck.

[Michael Bernstein]

Note that the HE3t (a front loader) is not the same as the Calypso (a top-loader).

Though it looks like the Calypso has not, in fact, been discontinued.

The sudsing problem from using non-HE detergent will not be as troubling for a front-loader like the HE3t, but in the Calypso (at least the original model I have) it is *lethal*, even when using 1/3 or less of the recommended amount.

As far as I know, All does not come in an HE variant, it's just labelled (falsely) as 'Suitable for all washer types, including HE'.

I concur with the Consumer-Reports recomendation. Note that they don't review appliances that have a new design that is significantly different from previous years'. They want to see what the maintenance and reliability track-record is, and they can't be sure until a design has been on the market for a while.

Following CRs recommendation at the time would have saved us a *lot* of trouble.

[Jim Courtney]

With all the problems you have had with your Dell, I do recommend that you investigate whether or not extended warranty service is available with any brand of washer/dryer you purchase. We have had ours (brand name insignificant at this point) for over 12 years and with a very low cost annual extended warranty have had the washer motor drive mechanism replaced twice. Three teen agers around when we orignally bought it will of course do that to a washer eventually.

[Harry Miller]

Agree on extended warranty. This is one of the situations where that will definitely make sense. But more importantly: Figure out who's going to fix it. When we got our front-loader, only one guy 25 miles away would fix them and it took 2 weeks to schedule him.

Bottom line: Doc's insight notwithstanding, don't ask us, ask a repair person what they'd buy. Or else just start collecting quarters for when it breaks down and you have to wait for the appliance repair guy or somebody like him.

[Kami Huyse]

Shel; I don't have a Kenmore Calypso, but I do have the front loader (no fancy subnames, model 42042) and LOVE it. No problems over four years now, and that includes the addition of a baby two years ago with all of the associated laundry.

[Jim Meyer]

Two pieces of advice:

1. Use the Consumer Reports website to research what models best fit your needs and are most reliable.

2. Buy, if possible, at the Sears Outlet in San Leandro (Google Map). Huge discounts on new appliances minorly scratched and/or dented during shipping/delivery, all with the standard warranties (and they'll work to sell you the extended warranty, of course).

We've had our washer, dryer, and refrigerator from there for five years plus now; during that time there was one issue with the icemaker which was quickly repaired under the standard warranty with no problems whatsoever.

Good luck!

[Adam Richardson]

My wife and I have had the Frigidaire stacking combo mentioned in another post for the last 5 years, and it has worked flawlessly. It's also sold under the Kenmore brand, with slightly different graphics and materials. Ours are the low-end models, but they just lack some of the more esoteric modes that I can never see the reason for anyway. One nice touch, the buzzers for the dryer and washer go for different durations, so you can tell which has finished.

Based on experiences of some friends who had Asko washer/dryers, and one we have at work, I would stay away from them. Not reliable, and hard to get repaired.

For stores near San Carlos I can highly recommend Bob's Culinary Supply in SF. They don't carry Frigidaire laundry stuff judging by their website (http://www.bobsupply.com), but they have extremely knowledgable, friendly staff. I worked with them extensively doing research on a project recently at frog design for a very high end oven, and they were endlessly patient with all the questions we had.

[Rick Young]

Please do not consider buying an Asko dryer. I own one, used for 1 year. Three repairs to pull large amounts of lint from the blower assembly. The repair techs at Hi Tech appliance in Broomfield CO say it is a design flaw. They do not carry ASKO products but certainly repair them, as according to them it is the most repaired appliance at their shop. Corp office will not support unit hiding behind warranty limitations rather than admitting the design flaws in the machine. If you want to toss 1K into toilet, buy one.
Rick Young

[Fred Ripley]

I want to ditto Rick's comments on Asko. I bought a stackable set to use in laundry room off kitchen. European design, stainless tubs, all the bells and whistles. When it works, it works well, however in 6 years of ownership I've replaced the washing machine motor 3 times! The dryer motor once! Forget about dealing with the company. Worst customer service ever. Buy anything else before an Asko. Owning them has been a nightmare.

[Jacque Millar]

I have a stackable Asko washer/condensing dryer. Wish I didn't!!!!!!!!!!
The dryer had to be replaced by Asko as it did not dry properly, the second condensing dryer overheats continuously and shuts down. I then have to let it cool down and climb over the top of the machine to access the well hidden and very inaccessible reset button.
I am going to give away the entire set to who ever will take it and never buy Asko again. I had to fight with the company for months to replace the first dryer that didn't dry properly. I spent more for this Asko system than any other in 30 years and have had endless problems that I never had with other company wash/dry products.

[Paul]

It depends what is important to you, but if you care about service and support, quality and dependability, and a fair price (good value) for what you get, avoid Whirlpool or Maytag like the plague. Virtually all machines will clean clothes acceptably for some period of time, but to my mind, it's how you are treated when the machine stops performing as expected, and the reason for the failure that are important. My Maytag story is posted at:

http://thewaythingsare.typepad.com/antimarketer/2006/10/brand_mismanage.html

and, there are hundreds if not thousands more like it.

After much research, we replaced our machine with a top of the line high efficiency front-load LG. It is quieter, cleans better, uses less water and power, has a much higher speed spin, and is quite simple to use and better looking to boot. After a dismal Maytag experience, we only considered two options -- Miele and LG. LG seems pretty close in quality, has a higher capacity, and to our mind was a better value, although I have no doubt that the Miele is the best available.

[Leon]

Just bought a Kenmore HE3 washer and am having a issue concerning wash time/imbalance. Tech was just here, said there is nothing wrong with the machine. A large load of towels set at normal cycle is supposed to take approx. 45 minutes to complete. The problem is when it gets to rinse/spin it keeps trying to balance the load I guess, continually going into a slow spin, stopping, tumbling the load a bit and again trying to spin. After 30 minutes of this it finally goes into high spin and completes the cycle. The washer is level and on a firm surface. The tech says this is normal and will continue to try (all day if necessary!) HE stand for high efficiency I thought, that's why we went to a front loader. Has anyone here ever timed a cycle or noticed this problem?

[Leon]

Sorry,should have said that the point of all this was that the 45 min. cycle ended being 75 min. long.